[J3] [EXTERNAL] Re: Comments on 23-146

Tue Feb 28 00:17:42 UTC 2023

Hear hear. Play the ball, not the man.

Cheers,

-- 

..............Malcolm Cohen, NAG Oxford/Tokyo.

From: J3 <j3-bounces at mailman.j3-fortran.org> On Behalf Of Dick Hendrickson via J3
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 9:00 AM
To: General J3 interest list <j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org>
Cc: Dick Hendrickson <dick.hendrickson at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [J3] [EXTERNAL] Re: Comments on 23-146

This is a problem for me. I accidently deleted something a minute ago, so I can't directly reply to it; but, I think I remember a (long, acrimonious?) thread from a few years ago about avoiding comments about people rather than their ideas.  So "This argument is of no intellectual merit whatsoever and I’m embarrassed for you that you made it" just seems wrong.  As Jim Matheny said "it's the ideas I'm attacking, not the idiot who came up with them."

Dick Hendrickson

On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 3:08 PM Jeff Hammond via J3 <j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org <mailto:j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org> > wrote:

Yes, I will show the use cases and the measurements.  >95% of the hundreds of GPU applications NVIDIA works with is using some form of asynchronous task parallelism.  It’s hard to write a CUDA program that doesn’t have it.  It’s a critical feature of OpenACC, which is used primarily by Fortran applications.  It’s also present in HIP and DPC++, which are important to other members of WG5.  That Fortran alone among the HPC languages lacks a form of asynchronous task parallelism inhibits its use on modern supercomputers, or at least forces the adoption of directives, which many WG5 members have indicated they do not like.

Jeff

From: Clune, Thomas L. (GSFC-6101) <thomas.l.clune at nasa.gov <mailto:thomas.l.clune at nasa.gov> >
Date: Monday, 27February 2023 at 10:08 PM
To: General J3 interest list <j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org <mailto:j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org> >, Van Snyder <van.snyder at sbcglobal.net <mailto:van.snyder at sbcglobal.net> >
Cc: Jeff Hammond <jehammond at nvidia.com <mailto:jehammond at nvidia.com> >, j3 <j3 at j3-fortran.org <mailto:j3 at j3-fortran.org> >
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [J3] Comments on 23-146

External email: Use caution opening links or attachments 

I will make a broader statement:  whether/how such features are implemented in other languages generally has limited relevance for Fortran.   We, of course, want to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the various approaches used in other languages, but those should stand on their own merits.   

Strengths and weaknesses are best examined in the light of concrete use cases.   If COBOL’s approach is the best for our prioritized use cases, that is just fine.   (And makes for an amusing story at the end of the day.)    I look forward to a constructive discussion about the strengths/weaknesses of varying approaches to accommodating independent tasks in an asynchronous context.  (Trying hard, but failing, to use completely neutral terminology.)

From: J3 <j3-bounces at mailman.j3-fortran.org <mailto:j3-bounces at mailman.j3-fortran.org> > on behalf of j3 <j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org <mailto:j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org> >
Reply-To: j3 <j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org <mailto:j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org> >
Date: Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:47 PM
To: Van Snyder <van.snyder at sbcglobal.net <mailto:van.snyder at sbcglobal.net> >
Cc: Jeff Hammond <jehammond at nvidia.com <mailto:jehammond at nvidia.com> >, j3 <j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org <mailto:j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org> >, j3 <j3 at j3-fortran.org <mailto:j3 at j3-fortran.org> >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [J3] Comments on 23-146

On 27. Feb 2023, at 21.39, Van Snyder <van.snyder at sbcglobal.net <mailto:van.snyder at sbcglobal.net> > wrote:

External email: Use caution opening links or attachments 

On Mon, 2023-02-27 at 15:21 +0000, Jeff Hammond wrote:

I would prefer that Fortran join this modern language set rather than fade into history like Ada.

WG9 has more members than WG5.

This argument is of no intellectual merit whatsoever and I’m embarrassed for you that you made it.

Jeff

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