[J3] (SC22WG5.6238) Fwd: Draft Directives

Bill Long longb at cray.com
Mon Jun 15 17:33:55 EDT 2020


Hi Steve,

Interesting information. Thanks for forwarding.
A couple of questions:

1) Are J3 emeritus members (examples include Richard Maine, Dick Hendrickson, …)  included in the ISO registry of “experts”?  (A way for at least some to participate without paying the INCITS dues).

2) Is there a web link to the currently authorized experts for WG5?

Cheers,
Bill


> On Jun 15, 2020, at 3:57 PM, Steve Lionel via J3 <j3 at mailman.j3-fortran.org> wrote:
> 
> I received the following "heads up" from David Keaton, SC22 Chair, about a change in policy for guests invited to WG meetings. I pass it along for information only (I did not include the attachment, but let me know directly if you want to see it.) I did remark to David that joining a WG means joining the National Body (NB - J3 for the US) and there can be a significant expense (as there is in the US.) David, in his reply, agreed and noted that in some countries you have to sign over intellectual property to the NB!
> 
> Steve
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: David Keaton <dmk at dmk.com>
> Date: Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 3:54 PM
> Subject: Draft Directives
> 
> 
> Dear SC 22 Convenors,
> 
>       Recently, JTC 1 sent out a draft of the 2020 ISO/IEC Directives 
> with JTC 1 Supplement, Part 1.  I've attached a copy.
> 
>       I'd like to draw your attention to subclause 1.12.2 in the 
> description of working groups.  There is some history associated with it.
> 
>       Some years ago, there was an incident of bullying in an 
> international standards committee (in a subject area that was not 
> related to SC 22's).  Ever since then, national bodies have been worried 
> that the bullying parties would show up at meetings.  They began 
> cracking down on which people were allowed to attend WG meetings, making 
> it more and more explicit that only registered members may participate 
> in the process.  As part of the crackdown, in 2017, ISO and IEC added a 
> new subclause 1.12.2 that said "Experts not registered to a working 
> group in the ISO [Global Directory] or the IEC [Expert Management 
> System] respectively, shall not participate in its work."
> 
>       It has always been understood that convenors could invite guests 
> to WG meetings, but in the past, that rule was never written down.  The 
> 2017 addition appeared to contradict the unwritten rule, which was not 
> intended.  Therefore, last year, they added a new sentence to subclause 
> 1.12.2 saying "Convenors may invite a specific guest to participate in a 
> single meeting."
> 
>       Unfortunately, the national bodies were uncomfortable with this 
> being put in writing.  A few weeks ago, ISO and IEC extended that 
> sentence to say ". . . and shall notify the guest's National Body of the 
> invitation."  The idea behind this is effectively to give veto power to 
> the national bodies.  If a convenor exercises the right to invite guests 
> "too often" as interpreted by any particular national body, or if a 
> convenor invites someone a national body doesn't like, the requirement 
> to notify the guest's national body provides a chance to protest the 
> invitation and apply pressure to stop inviting as many people or 
> particular people.
> 
>       Here is the full text of that subclause as it stands today.
> 
> "1.12.2 The composition of the working group is defined in the ISO 
> Global Directory (GD) or in the IEC Expert Management System (EMS) as 
> appropriate. Experts not registered to a working group in the ISO GD or 
> the IEC EMS respectively, shall not participate in its work. Convenors 
> may invite a specific guest to participate in a single meeting and shall 
> notify the guest’s National Body of the invitation."
> 
>       I am not happy with the increased crackdown.  Several SC 22 WGs 
> depend on being able to work with nonmembers.  However, the rules will 
> not be loosened, because they were created out of fear generated by a 
> past incident of bullying.  The most we can do is be aware of them and 
> do the best we can to get our work done while respecting the directives.
> 
>       Consequently, I would recommend that you continue to invite guests 
> as you have in the past, but now be aware that you will need to notify 
> the guests' national bodies, and those national bodies will be looking 
> over your shoulder.  You may wish to reduce the number of invitations of 
> a particular person, or the frequency of invitations overall, to avoid 
> attracting too much attention from national bodies.  People can always 
> be encouraged to join the WG formally, so that an invitation will not be 
> required.
> 
>       Sorry for the extra hassle.  New rules designed to prevent a 
> single past incident generally have negative consequences.
> 
>                                         David

Bill Long                                                                       longb at cray.com
Principal Engineer, Fortran Technical Support &   voice:  651-605-9024
Bioinformatics Software Development                      fax:  651-605-9143
Cray, a Hewlett Packard Enterprise company/ 2131 Lindau Lane/  Suite 1000/  Bloomington, MN  55425





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